The parlous state of the Church of the nation makes the traditional vicar’s wife role more not less necessary.
Elderly parish churches with scarcely any children in the regular congregation do not need a vicar’s wife sporting a t-shirt at her husband’s licensing: ‘I don’t make scones.’
A wife willing to do such traditional feminine things is essential if that church is going to start attracting children and therefore families.
Cranmer’s Curate was forcibly reminded of this at his church’s Sunday Club fun day today. On Christmas Day in 1999 there were no children in the parish church. Now by God’s grace the number of children in the regular congregation is in double figures.
The momentum that creates was clearly felt at the fun day with our regulars as well as fringe and new-comers being taught the Lord Jesus Christ in a child-friendly environment.
No bon-bons for any youth group member who guesses whom the Lord God has used to bring about this turnaround.
But she is an unsung heroine in the modern Church of England.
Dioceses are increasingly appointing deans of women’s ministry, but what has happened to the clergy wives’ group? It is now called clergy partners and has a profile about as low as an under 65 in too many Anglican churches.
A church culture that celebrates shoulder-paded feminism does not value this traditional role, which is now so essential for mission in an ageing denomination that is numerically and financially melting down.
But thankfully the Man who came not to be served but to serve does value her ministry.
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I can't make out whether you're serious or not? It doesn't really matter who makes the scones, but surely the Church of England has to move beyond the days when either the vicar, or the vicars wife, is expected to be the hub of everything?
ReplyDeleteChurches with an unwritten list of jobs for 'the vicars wife' are abdicating responsibility for their own mission and ministry. Yes there are probably some clergy wives/husbands who are called and gifted by God to the kind of ministry you talk about. But there are many that aren't, or who long to break free from the straitjacket of expectations that the 'vicars wife' role brings with it in some traditional settings.
Someone to lead and co-ordinate children and families work probably is 'essential', but surely that's a role for the person best suited to do it, rather than for whoever happens to be married to the parish priest?
It can be a very difficult position: clergy wives live in a goldfish bowl, they have a 'status' conferred by the church community, but no real authority, and probably have enough of a job on raising kids, supporting a stressed-out husband and working out how to pay the £500 a month heating bill for the ancient Rectory!
Sorry, you got me going there......!!
With respect, dearest Curate to the venerable Cranmer, my husband makes the most marvelous victoria sponge cake with an exquisite lemon frosting a-top! Will that do?
ReplyDeleteAnd (having just got through the same selection panel as the lovely Rachel above), my husband neither bakes nor has any Christian faith at all - will that make me unacceptable as a potential incumbent?
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm a pretty traditional Vicar's Wife - and I love it - both the baking and sharing in my husband's ministry. It must be so much harder to offer hospitality if you are a single Vicar or you have a wife (or husband) who isn't keen to do it aswell. You don't have to make scones, but you can buy a packet at Tescos and invite others over. We are pretty new in our parish and I can see that hospitality makes a difference to people's attitude to church. I'm not doing Sunday School, but am busy in other areas of church life. There were no expectations of me when I arrived, but I'm a Christian who can see plenty of places to serve and am getting on with it as far as three small children and a large and messy Vicarage allow me.
ReplyDeleteKate: I don't understand how you can enter ministry and aspire to lead othes when your husband is not saved. You need spiritual unity first.
ReplyDeleteI am so glad David (dmk) has responded saying much of what I would want to say and agree with points made by all of the commentors so far. Too much of what you're saying seems to be in danger of forcing people into sterotypes that they may not feel comfortable within and which may end up restricting the way in which we look for God to work through Vicars and their families.
ReplyDeleteI feel I need to take slight issue with you on a different point however and that is in regards to your use of the term 'shoulder padded feminism'. I'm not sure I would recognise 'shoulder padded feminism' if I met it (it sounds a little like an 80's fashion victim) but as someone who would describe herself as a feminist of the non-shoulder padded variety I have to say my experience has been that there is very little in the way of celebrating my position within the church. There is a good deal of shaking of heads, sugestions that women are abandoning much valued roles and being motivated by aggressive ambition to aspire to things that are really not theirs to have. Forgive me if I am misinterpreting you but I sense some of those vibes in your blog post.
I find, as a woman vicar, that some of the roles I find myself assuming within the parish are those that would be 'traditionally' assocciated with a vicar's wife (yes I bake scones!). My husband (also ordained but not currently in parish ministry) does few of the things that would 'traditionally'be seen as the role of a clergy spouse but is beginning to find other ways to take a part in the life of the church- not least working with fringe members interested in sci-fi and film! I see great possibilities for mission and ministry in a future in which 'traditional' roles and expectations are not allowed to straight-jacket us. Rather that individuals are allowed to find the place God calls them to in their ministry.
When I was a curate my husband was under huge pressure to act as some kind of unpaid church functionary - which was ironic since I was also unpaid and we had no clergy house! He supported my ministry absolutely 100% but that was through supporting me not my churches!
ReplyDeleteIn general I agree that hospitality is important but what about the clergy kids if the clergy house is operating as a drop in centre and the clergy spouse as an unpaid PA/host(ess)? How about someone else in the parish offering hospitality?
I read an article today called 'Women in youth ministry', although it's also about gender roles in Christianity. Thought you might find it interesting: http://bit.ly/1kFqR
ReplyDelete@Pam I was on a conference the other week where a Vicar's wife friend who was also a clergy kid when she was young commented that she loved growing up in a house that was always open - not just to the parish but also to her and her friends. And others offering hospitality depends on the culture in your parish. It's not really the norm where we are in the inner city, so we try to model it so that others will follow.
ReplyDeletePS I note that I seem to be the only Vicar's wife commenting so far.
So much depends upon the beliefs and the status of the minister. As a SSM my house is emphatically not a vicarage; my wife has her own job to do (and her own church to attend, at least part-time). And I prefer it that way as it stops her being dragged into the "vicar's wife role".
ReplyDeleteThe danger of a traditional "vicar's wife" is the confusion of leadership. Imagine a "vicar's wife" with various leadership roles within the congregation, and where any dispute with the mere munchkins beneath her could be resolved by referring upwards to the vicar. No doubts which way these judgements would go.
But I presume you were thinking more in terms of vicar's wife as a form of diaconal ministry - i.e. serving and tables and looking after the children?
As a non-Christian, I married a non-Christian engineer with earning potential. We both became Christians and I now find myself as the Vicar's Wife in a small village parish. I love it. I can't say I thought I would. My role is to support my husband in whatever job he does, engineer or Vicar. We're in this together - we're both committed to the Parish, to the Congregation and to our village. That means that sometimes I have to bake scones, run the children's work or offer hospitality but I'm also a member of the church family and so muck in where needed.
ReplyDeleteI don't think too much about expectations or traditional roles - I serve the Lord (and my husband and kids) as best I can.
when God calls, he calls, he doesn't look at our status, he looks at our giftings as individuals. When he calls, he calls and he calls us all to different things, so some are called to support and others to lead, some to intercede and some to youth and children, some to preach and teach etc etc. When God calls, he calls and there ain't a thing you can do about it but follow. God loves us all for what we bring to the table, whether it's scones or not! ;-)
ReplyDeleteYes, Christian calling. God speaking infallibly through Holy Spirit-inspired Scripture is calling Christian wives to submit to their husbands as to the Lord (Ephesians 5v22); Christian husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5v25); Christian men in the local church not to quarrel but to lift up holy hands in prayer (1 Timothy 2v8); and Christian women in the local church to listen submissively to their male teaching elders (1 Timothy 2v11-12).
ReplyDeleteGod speaking infalibly through Holy-Spirit inspired scripture is also says 'In Christ there is neither male nor Female' (Gal 3:28); that husbands and wives 'should be subject to one another (Eph 5:21); that 'women should pray and prophecy in church' (1 Cor 11:5); calls women to be deacons (Romans 16:1) and apostles (Romans 16:7) (Later translators made Junia into Junias probably because the could not believe Paul could be talking about a woman!).
ReplyDeleteWe can quote proof texts at each other all day but how about instead we acknowledge that scripture is not as cut and dried on this issue as perhaps either of us would ideally like? That it therefore requires some careful reflection and discussion over an extended period of time so that the church as a whole may come to an understanding of what the Spirit is saying to us today.
My memory was that in the Church of England this has in fact already happenned. Obviously there are people who disagree with the line that the church has taken and have the rightful freedom to do so within the bounds fo Christian love and respect.
I love to see positive writing about the roles of women within the church - voluntary and stipendiary, ordained and lay but I feel it's a big shame to highlight them in the way you have Julian - but you have inspired our thinking and maybe some more posts will follow in the blogosphere that bring other perspectives, some more meaty theology and some experience from women themselves into the melting pot.
Thank you for this. I would make no claim to be a meaty theologian. But I wouldn't describe as 'meaty theology' the misuse of a verse in a letter about the ground for the salvation of all humanity, namely justification by faith in Christ, to over-ride the Apostle Paul's and indeed the Bible's teaching about the God-given complementarity of the sexes in creation and in the good ordering of the Church.
ReplyDeleteGalatians 3.28 has NOTHING AT ALL to say about the presbyteral ministry of women.
ReplyDeleteThat women prayed and prophesied in the New Covenant Church would not have surprised anyone, least of all Paul (Acts 21.19), any more than in the Church of the Old Covenant (Hannah, Huldah).
Romans 16.7 is a very narrow and uncertain foundation for establishing anything.
Very sorry if you misunderstood my quip about 'meaty theology' as being self referential. I was certainly NOT trying to claim that I had made any meaty theological statements- in fact I was trying to say the opposite. That proof texting which you and then I engaged in was certainly not meaty theology! In retrospect I probably wasn't clear on that and it probably sounded quite arrogant. That was not my intent and if I caused offence, I apologise.
ReplyDeleteIn using the verse from Galations I certainly was not making any claim to ''override teaching about the God given complementarity of the sexes or on the good ordering of the church'' as you put it. My aim was far less grandiose, simply to point out that verses referenced in isolation could be taken to suggest a very different position than the one you sketched out. Your move to counter this by reference to the wider context of Paul's teaching in Galatians and reference to a wider pattern in Paul's theology really underlines my point. Namely that a sensible discussion of this issue requires a lot more than proof texting.
Again I am sorry if I seem to be causing offence in what I am saying but your initial response seemed to be suggesting that my perspective and that of others could be dismissed out of hand on the basis of a number of proof texts taken out of context.
Anonymous- I was making no claim at all that Galations 3:28 spoke to the presbyteral ministry of women. It had not been my impression that Julian in his post had been speaking about the presbyteral ministry of women. I and he both referenced a number of texts that spoke broadly abut the place of women within the church. I don't intend enter into a debate about the presbyteral ministry of women as this is not Julian's intention in his blog post.
In reference to the Corinthians quotation- my use of it was precisely the one you suggested to point out that women taking an active part within worship was seen as unexceptional in churches. This was also my intent in referencing the existence of women deacons and apostles. My point is that a full and active ministry of women (which would have been highly controversial in both Jewish and Gentile cultures) seems to have been accepted within the church.
It's not my intent to cause an argument or get into big debates here - simply to point out that the issues involved are complex and require more reflection and serious hermeneutical work than the use of proof texts suggested.
"My point is that a full and active ministry of women (which would have been highly controversial in both Jewish and Gentile cultures) seems to have been accepted within the church."
ReplyDeleteAre you sure about this? Priestesses and prophetesses were very common in the Greco-Roman world; surely you have heard of the Delphic Oracle, the Cumaean Sibyl, the Vestal Virgins, and the Elysian mysteries?
The Gentile world had no problems at all with female-led cults.
Well, now that everyone has got all steamed up about dotting the i's and crossing the t's of biblical interpretation, stereo-typing the roles of vicar, curate and especially vicar's wife, can we start to see and meet with God's people as people?
ReplyDeleteGod made fantastic variety in his world and in the Church. There is no one working out of the role of vicar's spouse, whether male or female, which is "correct". There are simply a wide variety of people who are married to vicar's, curate's, etc.. No one way of enacting that role will be responsible for saving the Church of England. They all will be!
I make great bread, my husband makes the lightest pastry. Just because he is in ministry training why should we be forced to eat heavy pastry because I am the ordinand's wife?
Is it really too much to ask that we think about the abilities and talents God has given each of us before we rush into a mould of someone elses creation?
The Church of England will not collapse because the vicar's wife fails to make scones.
It will collapse if we all, as Christians, do not think seriously and carefully about the role God is asking us all, as individuals, to play in his church. It is our willingness to be honest with one another about our true feelings, to struggle to live together despite our differences and to treat one another with respect whilst accepting we do not all have to agree, which will build a functional, honest family. We will not look perfect, but we will show real love in our lives and our fellowships. Love which is both attractive and appealing.
After all, wasn't it seeing God's love in others that first attracted us to want to think more about God? Surely that is more important than whether a vicar's wife can make scones? Or is it the simplicity of this difficult task we cannot cope with?
How sad that a comment about how important the unsung role of wonderful, supporting and caring Vicars wives are;generated such disharmony.The devil must have been laughing in glee as casual blog readers, who could have been inspired by posted comments of support and love, reaffirmed their reasons why they do not attend a Church. Instead of theological point scoring, surely walking in love and soul saving is more important?
ReplyDeleteGod Bless,
Sue :)
I write as the wife of a curate and the daughter of a former Parish Priest.
ReplyDeleteMy mother was not a stereotype but my late father's ministry would not have been the same without her.
Some congregations may have expected a clergy wife with a homecounties accent, a Laura Ashley wardrobe and a scone making champion. Instead they got an Irish/Broad Yorkshire crossover accent, legging, and scones that one could use as ammunition in a slingshot.
However they also got a wife so totally devoted to the support of her husband's ministry and so full of Christian love that she manned endless jumble sales, clean endless pews (in early parishes singlehandedly), made endless mugs of tea for travellers on the road (and occasionally scared aggressive ones away from the door), put together endless parish magazines etc etc. If the work was hard and boring and did not attract other church members to do it, she did it. You wont ever find my mother making pretty cross stitch or watercolour painting. Her skills are many and nearly all practical. Most of all she guarded her family's wellbeing as only a mother, particularly a Christian mother, can.
I am now walking a similar road and see my role to be a source of strength and support to my husband as he is always to me. To be a loving mother to my son. To listen to God and be guided by his grace into areas of personal ministry where my own skills are appropriate for the task.
Thankfully it is the God who knows us best of all who helps to fit us for the tasks that He requires of us and guides us through them. I firmly believe that if He expects us to do something He will show us how.
If I can be half the 'clergy wife' that my mother was I will be doing tremedously!